读着 有趣

【 在 topgenius 的大作中提到: 】
: 标  题: Goodbye, Rust. I wish you success but I'm back to C++[zz]
: 发信站: 水木社区 (Fri Nov 29 10:55:22 2024), 站内
:
: Goodbye, Rust. I wish you success but I'm back to C++ (sorry, it is a rant)
:
: In my 3 year run in Rust I did asynch/multithreaded code, FFI with bindgen, kernel programming without std. It was fun. But fun is over, I started a C++ position 1 month ago.
:
: Rust is a superior technology to C++. It has better tools (cargo), better libraries ecosystem (crates.io), it cuts out a lot of crap (no OOP, no exceptions, memory handling, etc), it disciplines you to do the things the right way.
:
: But Rust is better in the same way that Betamax was better than VHS, Mastodon is better than Twitter, Dvorak keyboards are better than QWERTY, Esperanto is better than English and Lua is better than Javascript: in communication technologies, adoption and
: critical mass are 90% of the game and the other 10% are bikeshedding, at best. And programming languages are a communication technology, they're means to communicate ideas to other programmers.
:
: And the problem with Rust is that it just doesn't have critical mass and, frankly, I don't think it will ever have. Recently, Linus Torvalds complained somewhere that old C dinosaurs don't want to learn Rust. For higher level stuff (e.g.: web backends) Go
:  offers faster iteration cycles than Rust because it has a gentler learning curve and better compile times. Yes, Rust adoption is rising but competing technologies are also getting better (e.g.: safer C++ with better linting tools, JIT JavaScript and WASM
:  engines getting faster) or rising faster (Go).
:
: And then there's the elephant in the room: Rust is almost irrelevant for finding jobs. The majority of the Rust programming jobs asks primarily for deep knowledge in specialized technologies: cryptocurrencies/blockchain, finance trading, machine learning/
: data analysis, obscure network protocols, cybersecurity, etc. In those positions, Rust expertise is, at most, a "nice to have". My point is that you'll never be hired for knowing Rust well but for knowing well the domain.
:
: This very same sub-reddit is also part of the problem. I find it crazy that in other programming language subs (e.g.: Golang, C++) the jobs threads are always stickied at the top. I rarely see it in here. It is like "the first rule of Rust jobs is that no
:  one talks about Rust jobs".
:
: There is an huge junkyard of technologies that failed to gain broad acceptance, many of them far more revolutionary than Rust (e.g.: Lisp, Smalltalk). I don't see why those technologies' story can be avoided.
:
: It is worth mentioning: a big push in advancing programming languages was the support of big corporations. IBM pushed FORTRAN, AT&T pushed C, Microsoft pushed MS-Basic and C#, Sun pushed Java, Google pushed Python, Apple pushed Objective-C and Swift, web
: browsers pushed Javascript and most big companies pushed C++. I don't see that many strong sponsors firmly behind Rust and pushing for adoption by customers.
:
: Edit: yeah, I know I'll be downvoted to oblivion because every sub-reddit is meant to be a circlejerk. No one likes inconvenient truths in reddit. But that is part of my point: a community that insulates itself will never become influential.
:
: Edit 2: oh shit! My rant came to the top! Now I feel like a stupid whining child. Well done, guys... That was classy. Please don't take this post too seriously.
:
: --
:
: ※ 来源:·水木社区 mysmth.net·[FROM: 112.10.241.*]
--
FROM 124.207.188.194

我60%同意他的观点。因为我用C++。

但C++也不乐观，Herbs从微软离职了。C++阵营也面临分裂。
微软很可能回到VC6时代，iso一套标准，微软一套标准。在C++的问题上。

也可能再干5年，华为强推一门语言……
【 在 topgenius 的大作中提到: 】
: Goodbye, Rust. I wish you success but I'm back to C++ (sorry, it is a rant)
: In my 3 year run in Rust I did asynch/multithreaded code, FFI with bindgen, kernel programming without std. It was fun. But fun is over, I started a C++ position 1 month ago.
: Rust is a superior technology to C++. It has better tools (cargo), better libraries ecosystem (crates.io), it cuts out a lot of crap (no OOP, no exceptions, memory handling, etc), it disciplines you to do the things the right way.
: ...................
--
修改:DoorWay FROM 113.137.166.*
FROM 113.137.166.*

And then there's the elephant in the room: Rust is almost irrelevant for finding jobs. The majority of the Rust programming jobs asks primarily for deep knowledge in specialized technologies: cryptocurrencies/blockchain, finance trading, machine learning/data analysis, obscure network protocols, cybersecurity, etc. In those positions, Rust expertise is, at most, a "nice to have". My point is that you'll never be hired for knowing Rust well but for knowing well the domain.

这不是正确的废话么，对所有编程语言都一样。
编程语言本身只是个工具而已，真正重要的是使用工具解决问题的能力而不是工具本身。
--
FROM 117.186.6.*

谁分裂谁死
不看好cppfront2，不看好carbon
跟着标准走，最后还是要看主流
【 在 DoorWay 的大作中提到: 】
: 我60%同意他的观点。因为我用C++。
: 但C++也不乐观，Herbs从微软离职了。C++阵营也面临分裂。
: 微软很可能回到VC6时代，iso一套标准，微软一套标准。在C++的问题上。
: ...................
--
FROM 111.222.57.*

这种分裂既是有意，也是无意，出发点并不一样。
除了xhcd上著名的“这事儿竟然有14种标准？我要写一个统一了。于是有了15种标准”的统一派。

也有微软技术超前的原因。比如seh异常就是跑在在标准异常前面。微软压根看不上C++标准委员会那帮人。当然不是针对在座的C++委员会，是看不上整个开源届。还有CRTP，也是先有实践发现，才有理论化。

最近十年开源随着互联网、云的蓬勃发展，微软不得不逐渐拥抱开源，甚至摇身一变，成为带头大哥。从只有社会主义才能救Cn，到只有Cn才能救社会主义。微软的C++编译器，支持新标准一马当先，成为C++发展进化的中坚力量。其他还有换用Edge，解救一批深陷IE6国内前端码农。还有收购github。开源.Net，剥离Framework，甚至用git的时候，“顺手”解决个大文件存储。放出个vscode，一众vim党纷纷丢盔弃甲；支持WSL，大家惊呼最好用的linux开发环境；定义LSP规范，完全改写了自动补全的插件面貌……

天下大势合久必分分久必合。如果长期支持C++带不出来回报，或者不支持也不会有竞争损失，或者微软自己要用的东西，过不了标准委员会提议，微软分分钟关起门自己玩。我自己玩，跟分裂你无关的那种“分裂”。

另外国内时机成熟，是连硬件和操作系统都要替换的。换编程语言根本不是社区和语言成熟度的问题。当然我是不希望用华为推的语言和工具链的，宁愿他们套个壳，对上交差。
【 在 overcomeunic 的大作中提到: 】
: 谁分裂谁死
: 不看好cppfront2，不看好carbon
: 跟着标准走，最后还是要看主流
--
修改:DoorWay FROM 1.86.62.*
FROM 1.86.62.*