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Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Wed Oct 13 00:57:29 2004) 提到:
http://billwilliams.org/ANTI/anti-semitism.html#4
INTRODUCTION
The Holocaust took place only a few decades ago under the very eyes of
Christian Europe. The Christian clergy looked on while six million men,
women, and children were murdered. And as the Jewish extermination program
spread from one end of Europe to the other, the Pope sat in the Vatican with
his attitude of neutrality concerning Hitler and his victims. There can be no
doubt that the mass genocide of millions of Jews all over Europe called for
enormous participation by huge numbers of people, both Protestant and
Catholic. The horror of these events transcends anything known in human
history. That it should have happened at all and in our time, and in a part
of the world long thought to be civilized, culturally advanced and
"Christian" is incomprehensible. What would cause such terrible hatred of
every Jewish man, woman, and child that they should become the mortal enemy
of the populations with whom they had lived for generations? What allowed
millions of people who considered themselves to be Christians to participate
as perpetrators, collaborators, or silent bystanders, as six million men,
women, and children were slaughtered? And how did a competition between two
sister religions become so great an abyss that it made mass murder possible?
These are the questions this paper seeks to answer through an understanding
of the theology and practice of the Christianity in which these perpetrators,
collaborators, and bystanders were raised, and which would support an
environment that could allow such a horrific event to take place.
In the light of history, one can't help but wonder if the events of this
century have had any impact on today's Christian theology students who will
be tomorrow's pastors and teachers? As the foundational teachings of the
faith and the writings of the Church Fathers and "great theologians" are
studied, are they accepted uncritically as indisputable authority? And to
what extent is the information on Jews and Judaism presented in inadequate,
biased, and distorted ways? As these students graduate, will they go on to
teach large numbers of Christians who will be even less informed? As they
stand in their pulpits and talk about "the Jews," the "Pharisees," the
crucifixion of Jesus, and the early Church, will these pastors and teachers
no longer be thinking of Auschwitz?
To understand the anti-Semitism of Christian Europe of this century, one must
look back two thousand years to the birth of Christianity and its separation
from its beginnings in Judaism. As we look back to the beginning of the
Christian Era, the issues are indeed multitudinal and complex. Only through a
knowledge of this critical time of transition can we understand the roots of
the prejudice which developed into Christian anti-Semitism. To understand how
a thoroughly Jewish religion of the Nazarene sect became the anti-Jewish
religion of the Christian Church, it is necessary to retrace the events of
the early centuries starting with Jesus.
It is the intent of this paper to focus on the person of Jesus and his
teaching, the theology and teaching of the Apostle Paul, culminating with the
writings and theology of the Church Fathers through the 4th and 5th centuries
and how each has or has not contributed to the roots of Christian
anti-Semitism.
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KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Wed Oct 13 01:33:52 2004) 提到:
笑死,你到底看懂这篇文章没有?你准备从文章得出什么支持你的结论?
算了,我介绍你去看一本书吧。你毫不熟悉文献,在网上艘到一篇学生论文就当了
宝,好笑得很。
Freudmann, L.C. (1994) Anti-Semitism in the New Testament
本书是有史以来对新约反犹主义最系统、全面的一个研究,在学界有重要地位,
就是属于摒弃新约文本本身的一类研究,企图回到希伯来之文本,探究
早期使徒与犹太教及耶酥本人之关系。她认为新约之反犹主义,乃是对希伯来文
犹太经典之(有意几无意的)误解、误译之故,她努力分析了新约作者之特定社会背景
与语境(如前基督教时代之希腊反犹观念)对其加以解释。这属于从希伯来经典本
身来驳斥新约反犹主义之不正当性(而非否定其存在),代表当今的研究方向。
保罗本人则根本不是犹太人,亦不熟悉犹太教。他更多的是受希腊哲学及神秘主义
影响。之所以说基督教是犹太文明与希腊文明之合壁(或者说犹太文明之海伦化),
便是因为保罗这一脉的发展和诠释。一大部分今天被理解为反犹主义的文本,就直接
出自保罗之手。保罗的误解未必是特意的,但造成的影响是客观的,他对新约成为反犹
主义根源,富有极大责任。新约之著作不是耶酥本人,更不是犹太法师。保罗等早期传
教者奠定了整个基督教的教理基础。耶酥早期的非反犹教说,和基督教是否有反犹主
义毫无关系。
著作后面部分更详细介绍新约文本中被诠释为反犹言论的内容对基督教徒之影响。
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
:
http://billwilliams.org/ANTI/anti-semitism.html#4: INTRODUCTION
: The Holocaust took place only a few decades ago under the very eyes of
: ...................
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Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Wed Oct 13 01:46:48 2004) 提到:
笑死什么 ?你不是宣称没有必要再加入这个讨论了么 ?
你不是宣称自己胜利了吗 ?
我不过就是偷懒顺手从网上查了一把而已。你呢,除了拿大部头来说说,
我估计你也没怎么太看过。
至于文本的解释和文本的关系,你最后那一句已经说明问题了。
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: 笑死,你到底看懂这篇文章没有?你准备从文章得出什么支持你的结论?
: 算了,我介绍你去看一本书吧。你毫不熟悉文献,在网上艘到一篇学生论文就当了
: 宝,好笑得很。
: ...................
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KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Wed Oct 13 01:51:47 2004) 提到:
这个,笑你拿一个学生论文出来当权威咯。
呵呵
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 笑死什么 ?你不是宣称没有必要再加入这个讨论了么 ?
这个,我爱什么时候加入就什么时候加入,爱什么时候推出就什么时候退出。
: 你不是宣称自己胜利了吗 ?
: 我不过就是偷懒顺手从网上查了一把而已。你呢,除了拿大部头来说说,
你要我说哪一部大部头?呵呵,我给你慢慢说,一章一章地说。
阿多诺和霍克海姆的〈启蒙之辩证〉有兴趣么?鲍曼呢?古德哈根呢?
不负责任举例子的人好像就是你,你举的Oxford Reader: NAzisim
呵呵
: ...................
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Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Wed Oct 13 01:54:51 2004) 提到:
我从没拿这个网络上的东西当权威。我当然不专业。
不过你好象只会举出几个书名,然后拿这些书名吓唬人。
自己什么都没看。
我说的本来就是对的,你错就错了,本来没什么。
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: 这个,笑你拿一个学生论文出来当权威咯。
: 呵呵
: 这个,我爱什么时候加入就什么时候加入,爱什么时候推出就什么时候退出。
: ...................
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KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Wed Oct 13 02:08:41 2004) 提到:
呵呵,自己说自己本来就是对了。“我本来就对了”,你“本来就是错的”
精神胜利法。
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 我从没拿这个网络上的东西当权威。我当然不专业。
: 不过你好象只会举出几个书名,然后拿这些书名吓唬人。
呵呵,我觉得你举Oxford Reader Nazism这本书的名字时候,
是在吓人吧?至于为什么,已经通过我对书中内容的分析说明了。
: 自己什么都没看。
你想了解哪本书的内容呢?呵呵。欢迎提问。
鲍曼的书我还在哲学版和读书版有读书笔记。
: ...................
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Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Wed Oct 13 02:12:17 2004) 提到:
这本书我今年 3 月就查了,我看书向来查目录直奔主题,
只查和基督教有关的部份,所以才会错把他当作会议论文集。
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: 呵呵,自己说自己本来就是对了。“我本来就对了”,你“本来就是错的”
: 精神胜利法。
: 呵呵,我觉得你举Oxford Reader Nazism这本书的名字时候,
: ...................
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KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Wed Oct 13 02:16:06 2004) 提到:
呵呵,我已达到目的了,出于善意,就不在这个问题上难为你了。
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 这本书我今年 3 月就查了,我看书向来查目录直奔主题,
: 只查和基督教有关的部份,所以才会错把他当作会议论文集。
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Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Wed Oct 13 02:19:30 2004) 提到:
诚实是做人的本份,错就是错,对就是对。我从不在这些问题上
作违背良心的事情。
不过你的这个硬要把圣经和反犹联系在一起,硬要把哲学加上去,
还不断搬出大部头,这些大部头又无法支持你的观点。
我只能说,你大概太爱面子了。
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: 呵呵,我已达到目的了,出于善意,就不在这个问题上难为你了。
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KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Wed Oct 13 02:23:44 2004) 提到:
这种爱面子的情绪,在(准)学术版上的自尊,这种以外在道德观为基础的耻心理,
更容易在像3877和3914这样的文章中找到。
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 诚实是做人的本份,错就是错,对就是对。我从不在这些问题上
: 作违背良心的事情。
: 不过你的这个硬要把圣经和反犹联系在一起,硬要把哲学加上去,
: ...................
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Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Wed Oct 13 02:26:32 2004) 提到:
人的忍耐程度都有限的,你一开始就“热心”地介绍一些初级
读物给我看,然后又说什么什么是常识,那些是常识吗 ?
我后来发作两句也是人之常情。
你一开始大概以为我是个对基督教一窍不通的土包子,又想当然
以为我在国内。嘿嘿,我就懒得说你了。
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: 这种爱面子的情绪,在(准)学术版上的自尊,这种以外在道德观为基础的耻心理,
: 更容易在像3887和3914这样的文章中找到。
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Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Wed Oct 13 02:28:45 2004) 提到:
另外,今天你推荐的大部头又没有支持你的观点。
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: 这种爱面子的情绪,在(准)学术版上的自尊,这种以外在道德观为基础的耻心理,
: 更容易在像3877和3914这样的文章中找到。
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KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Wed Oct 13 02:31:39 2004) 提到:
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 人的忍耐程度都有限的,你一开始就“热心”地介绍一些初级
: 读物给我看,然后又说什么什么是常识,那些是常识吗 ?
哪个是常识啊?呵呵。如果不是常识,我表示歉意。
精英主义在学者中是很泛滥的,是一种坏习惯:
旁证博引并认为所有读者都了解被引用的著作和学者;引用外文而不加翻译;
偶尔对本土读者使用非本土语言写作;认为所有探讨问题的人都对本科的文献
和共识有所了解;认为所有探讨问题的人在这一领域上和自己的知识结构接近;
对对方不了解专业领域内的一些知识和理论感到恼火;言论不照顾读者。
: 我后来发作两句也是人之常情。
: 你一开始大概以为我是个对基督教一窍不通的土包子,又想当然
: 以为我在国内。嘿嘿,我就懒得说你了。
这个,本着学术良心地说,我现在仍然觉得是。
土包子有个标准,需要有参照物。你读过新约、进过教堂、看过布道嘛,
这里很多人没有。
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Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Wed Oct 13 02:34:11 2004) 提到:
不仅是布道,许多事情我还问过教会的牧师,搞神学的在教会兼职的。
我走的路子都是土路子,但是很有效。
你对教会的了解大概就在书堆里了。参观过教堂也说一把,如果你到
美国你会失望的,大部份的教堂建筑都不怎么样。
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: 哪个是常识啊?呵呵。如果不是常识,我表示歉意。
: 精英主义在学者中是很泛滥的,是一种坏习惯:
: 旁证博引并认为所有读者都了解被引用的著作和学者;引用外文而不加翻译;
: ...................
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KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Wed Oct 13 02:37:53 2004) 提到:
见3981文中我对第二个问题的立场
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 另外,今天你推荐的大部头又没有支持你的观点。
引用文章是针对那个学生的论文,不是支持我的什么既有观点:
他把反犹主义溯源自church fathers,而给早期基督教理论者免责;
freudman的立场不是给早期基督教理论者免责,而是探讨新约文本中诞生
反犹主义言论之历史原因。
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Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Wed Oct 13 02:38:47 2004) 提到:
我不懂解释学,你再解释解释。
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: 见3981文中我对第二个问题的立场
: 引用文章是针对那个学生的论文,不是支持我的什么既有观点:
: 他把反犹主义溯源自church fathers,而给早期基督教理论者免责;
: ...................
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KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Wed Oct 13 02:43:55 2004) 提到:
前面解释半天了,不解释了。
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 我不懂解释学,你再解释解释。
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Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Wed Oct 13 02:45:34 2004) 提到:
第一个问题就是毛泽东的言论和支持台独关系的问题。
如果毛泽东的那些言论被引用支持台独,你说毛泽东
对台独付有责任 ?
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: 前面解释半天了,不解释了。
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KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Wed Oct 13 02:57:30 2004) 提到:
毛的理论煽动台独,并且真实的被台独分子作为自己主义、自己信仰的理论基础
vs 台独者以毛的某一被断章取义的言论证明自己另外一套固有的,系统的、自成其说
的完全独于毛理论的主义是合理的
毛的整个理论对台独提供系统的、整合式的、全面的、使人信服的理论支持和合法
性基础,有逻辑上的因然性和必然性
vs 毛的某一句子被割裂语境断章取义的拿出来支持某一个特定的言论,
而此种断章取义的论证不能被毛的整个理论系统地、整合式地、全面的、
使人信服的支持,制成一个显而易见的谬论同时为人摒弃。
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 第一个问题就是毛泽东的言论和支持台独关系的问题。
: 如果毛泽东的那些言论被引用支持台独,你说毛泽东
: 对台独付有责任 ?
如果台独分子确实是通过系统、整合式的、全面的阅读毛的理论及实践,
得出了台湾应该独立,并且通过毛的理论来获得自己台独思想的意识形态唯一源泉,
把自己的意识形态完全建筑在毛的理论之上,
而没有受任何其他的理论影响,那么我们说毛对台独富有责任。
不过很遗憾,这样的台独分子是不存在的,也永远不会存在。所以你的例子毫无意义。
即便存在,也不是什么逻辑上的谬论,无非是在中共官方政治思想上不能接受罢了,
属于政治不正确,而不是逻辑谬论。
: ...................
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Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Wed Oct 13 02:59:54 2004) 提到:
那就对了。基督教和犹太教的矛盾就在于他们的神学理论的矛盾。
新约能找出什么来 ?
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: 毛的理论煽动台独,并且真实的被台独分子作为自己主义、自己信仰的理论基础
: vs 台独者以毛的某一被断章取义的言论证明自己另外一套固有的,系统的、自成其说
: 的完全独于毛理论的主义是合理的
: ...................
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KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Wed Oct 13 03:35:48 2004) 提到:
这个,你不兜圈子了,关于基督教理论和反犹主义之关系的特殊
用上文两个vs的第一项就可说明。你试图挑战当代解释学的例子是没有意义的。
基督教之反犹主义并不只在基督教和犹太教之神学上的矛盾:
而是对犹太人的消极描述和犹太人的弑神罪。如果恰巧杀死基督的并非犹太人,
那么故事会完全不一样。基督教和犹太教的神学矛盾
也并非真是形而上的,核心还是是否承认耶酥为救世主这个相对实际的问题,而
希腊哲学的影响带来的矛盾则是次要的,更和后来的反犹主义没有什么关系。
涉及日常生活之犹太教规,被基督教基本取消,但也构不上重大矛盾。
最重要的,基督教几乎继承了犹太教的整个宗教的救世论框架和思维,一元神、
选民(重新定义)、救世主、再临等等。
两教的矛盾在新约中是自明的,因为两教不能调和(并非形而上的完全不能调和),
但两教在哲学上的继承关系也是明显的。
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 那就对了。基督教和犹太教的矛盾就在于他们的神学理论的矛盾。
: 新约能找出什么来 ?
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Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Wed Oct 13 11:36:24 2004) 提到:
你的所谓两个问题,实际上第一个问题和第二个问题有关系,我举毛泽东的
言论为什么大家都不相信,就是觉得环境不对。如果我脱离环境引用,
按照所谓的第一个问题,那任何东西只要被引用就是有责任了。
所谓的弑神论,并不是一开始就有的,而是基督教进入天主教时代出现的。
另外,所谓的挑战当代解释学的例子,我倒从来没想过这个所谓的挑战。
你也别用什么解释学来压人,我需要的就是说理,不需要什么高深莫测的术语。
另外,杀死基督的不是犹太人,那些兵丁是罗马的兵,什么种族不知道。
犹太人起的作用是支持杀死耶稣。这个新约里就有,马太福音里广被引用的那段。
马太福音同一章里还多次提到犹太人的王,那是指耶稣。
关于耶稣的死,神学上有个说法。我听牧师说过,好象是耶稣的血遮盖众人的罪,
道理上讲应该是有重大神学意义的事件,而且是必然的,耶稣事先预计到了,
也不是坏事,反正他后来又复活了。所以从道理上讲,如果从神学上仔细探查
犹太人的责任,似乎也没那么大,更何况耶稣自己也是犹太人。
所以如果从神学上讲,所谓的弑神罪也是和其他理论有些不一致的,亏得那些
主教们想得出来,一口恶气下不去拿这个当借口。
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: 这个,你不兜圈子了,关于基督教理论和反犹主义之关系的特殊
: 用上文两个vs的第一项就可说明。你试图挑战当代解释学的例子是没有意义的。
: 基督教之反犹主义并不只在基督教和犹太教之神学上的矛盾:
: 而是对犹太人的消极描述和犹太人的弑神罪。如果恰巧杀死基督的并非犹太人,
: 那么故事会完全不一样。基督教和犹太教的神学矛盾
: 也并非真是形而上的,核心还是是否承认耶酥为救世主这个相对实际的问题,而
: 希腊哲学的影响带来的矛盾则是次要的,更和后来的反犹主义没有什么关系。
: 涉及日常生活之犹太教规,被基督教基本取消,但也构不上重大矛盾。
: 最重要的,基督教几乎继承了犹太教的整个宗教的救世论框架和思维,一元神、
: 选民(重新定义)、救世主、再临等等。
: 两教的矛盾在新约中是自明的,因为两教不能调和(并非形而上的完全不能调和),
: 但两教在哲学上的继承关系也是明显的。
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Wed Oct 13 11:42:53 2004) 提到:
关于保罗是否犹太人一说,你查一把网站,就会发现是各说各词。
另外,新约的罗马书是保罗和犹太教决裂的作品,他同样在里面大量
提到了犹太人,从作者口气里看,我个人认为他是犹太人。
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: 笑死,你到底看懂这篇文章没有?你准备从文章得出什么支持你的结论?
: 算了,我介绍你去看一本书吧。你毫不熟悉文献,在网上艘到一篇学生论文就当了
: 宝,好笑得很。
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Wed Oct 13 20:07:50 2004) 提到:
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 你的所谓两个问题,实际上第一个问题和第二个问题有关系,我举毛泽东的
: 言论为什么大家都不相信,就是觉得环境不对。如果我脱离环境引用,
: 按照所谓的第一个问题,那任何东西只要被引用就是有责任了。
: 所谓的弑神论,并不是一开始就有的,而是基督教进入天主教时代出现的。
jewish had killed the God's Son, this does not need any radical
interpretation. it is a fact clearly stated in the New Testament.
the Catholic did not "invent" the fact that the Jews had killed Jesus.
your example is a terribly bad example
: 另外,所谓的挑战当代解释学的例子,我倒从来没想过这个所谓的挑战。
: 你也别用什么解释学来压人,我需要的就是说理,不需要什么高深莫测的术语。
: 另外,杀死基督的不是犹太人,那些兵丁是罗马的兵,什么种族不知道。
you just dont understand the theory, and claim that the theories are
useless, this is the worst attitude of all in an academic debate.
in philosophy board we normally ban people making such claims outright.
if you not know any theory of hermeneutics. it means nothing but
the fact that you are not qualified for the discussion.
: 犹太人起的作用是支持杀死耶稣。这个新约里就有,马太福音里广被引用的那段。
: 马太福音同一章里还多次提到犹太人的王,那是指耶稣。
: 关于耶稣的死,神学上有个说法。我听牧师说过,好象是耶稣的血遮盖众人的罪,
: 道理上讲应该是有重大神学意义的事件,而且是必然的,耶稣事先预计到了,
: 也不是坏事,反正他后来又复活了。所以从道理上讲,如果从神学上仔细探查
as far as i am concerned, this is nonsense, and this is clearly
far away from mainstream and orthordox interpretation of deicide.
the majority of people would not believe that Jewish is forgiven
simply because Jesus has undergone resurrection.
before you ask any "Father", make sure to get some knowledge in terms of what churches or section he belongs to. United States has the most diversified
christianity in the world, preseved all sorts of werid sects, schools
and bizzare interpretations and practices.
: 犹太人的责任,似乎也没那么大,更何况耶稣自己也是犹太人。
this is the thinking that shows complete ignorance towards
anti-semitism:
because Jesus is a Jew, so there should be no anti-semitism. this
logic has completed failed to grasp the central pillar of Christianity.
Yes, Jehovah was Jewish's God and make special contracts with them;
Yes, Jews were treated as Elects
Yes, Jesus himself is a Jew,
but this does not oppose to anti-semitism AT ALL.
what christian anti-semitism believes is that jewish has failed to
recognise jesus as the messiah; they are AGAINST the GOd's will'; they even
murdered God's son, this is a blatant denial of God's superioty. and
Christianity is formally believed to supercede Judaism. Post-Jesus,
Jewish people have lost ALL their previuos status and privileges,
and reduced to a condamned nation. From the Christian view,
Jewish naiton has taken a suicidal course.
Jesus represents GOD, a pillar in the Holy Spirit, his ethnicity is not
important and negleted. he stands and speaks for the human race.there
is a universalist thinking in christianity.
As i have mentioned, in anti-semitist societies it was not apprpriate to
say that Jesus was a Jew. In 30s Germany this would be a taboo.
your position simply cannot explain where anti-semitism was
ideologically from;
and you failed to explain why verses in new testament has on their own
account provoked and promoted stereotypes and hatred towards Jewish
where the hell does anti-semitism come from in cultural terms?
why people resort to new Testament when they need ideological
and theological justificaitons for their bias and hatred?
wy they are inspired by these texts? why New Testament has the function
to provoke anti-semitism, in many many occasions, simply by its own
account?
: 所以如果从神学上讲,所谓的弑神罪也是和其他理论有些不一致的,亏得那些
: 主教们想得出来,一口恶气下不去拿这个当借口。
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Wed Oct 13 20:22:48 2004) 提到:
you "believe" he is a Jewish?
I suggest you to read Freudmann. it is bizzare to make a
claim before you are even familiar with the literature. here
you are taking a fatih (not based upon rationality) instead of
founding a claim by reason. You BELIEVE PAUL iS Jewish,
this needs not to be supproted by any empirical evidences.
Whether Paul is a Jew has been one of the most controversial
topic in Christian history. Historians do NOT have agreements.
the dispute is NOT settled. the best way to do is to read accounts
and evidences provided from both sides and take a more balanced
position.
Your position is more like this: prior to the whether-paul-is-a-jew discourse
you believe that New Testament
is "intrinsically" not anti-semitic, the later one serves logically
as an a priori claim. it is thereupon
understandably better if Paul is a Jew; and he cannot misinterpret
Judaism and mistranslate Hebrew texts; he cannot misunderstand
Jesus's teachings despite agreements of other fellow followers
and he cannot (consciously or unconsciously) put in words and verses
which have elements of anti-semitism (or inspiring anti-semitism) in
his writings. Thereupon, Paul needs to be a non-Jew to validate the
whole claim.
What you have not realised is that there is no firm conclusion on
all these disputes. they are left to the work of historians. as a Chinese
young man limited by knowledge and expertise,
you do not have the capacity to disclose historical truth.
you cannot read greek, you cannot read hebrew, you cannot read
latin and you cannot read other ancient near East languages;
you are not formally trained in theology, philosophy, hermeneutics
and social sciences such as anthropology, sociology and politics;
your accounts have consistently shown that you lack of an
understanding of approaches employed in history as a formal
academic displine; and you lack of knowledge of philosophy of
social sciences. This applies to many people, not only you, but
to some extent me. what I am going to say is that you do not
have the capacity to support or reject any of those claims
put forth by historians. If you are convinced by one view,
you do not have the capacity of historians adopting the opposite
view to criticise and reject it based upon empirical evidences.
Is it over-naive to make a claim in such circumsntaces?
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 关于保罗是否犹太人一说,你查一把网站,就会发现是各说各词。
: 另外,新约的罗马书是保罗和犹太教决裂的作品,他同样在里面大量
: 提到了犹太人,从作者口气里看,我个人认为他是犹太人。
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Wed Oct 13 20:24:17 2004) 提到:
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 关于保罗是否犹太人一说,你查一把网站,就会发现是各说各词。
is this your big discovery?
does this not apply to the discourse of analysis
of anti-semitism in New Testament?
on these most controversial historical issues i do not take
any claim for granted. but you keep telling the people here
that your view is correct, as though you have read through all the
literature and debate and convinced by overwhelming empirical evidences.
this is not true and your claim make no sense.
it is just a manifestation of naivety as well as superficiality.
: 另外,新约的罗马书是保罗和犹太教决裂的作品,他同样在里面大量
: 提到了犹太人,从作者口气里看,我个人认为他是犹太人。
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
liuhen (sigh) 于 (Thu Oct 14 02:51:23 2004) 提到:
ft.
保罗是不是犹太人和从新约文本是不是反犹太人其实根本不是那么相关。
保罗不是犹太人,不等于他歧视/反对犹太人
保罗是犹太人,也不等于他不能批评犹太人
事实上,保罗作为一个主要由犹太人组成的宗教团体的核心成员,是不可能敌视犹太人的
而出于宗教需要,批评犹太人实在太正常了。基督教宣扬世人皆有罪,所以需要救赎
如果犹太人都那么完美无罪,还要基督干吗?至于后人拿新约来反对犹太人,实在和保罗
本人不一样。批评犹太人这不对那不好,说明犹太人是传教的主要对象,或者是要向犹太
人发动圣战了,嘿嘿,从早期基督教的历史看,显然在使徒时代还是前者,后来就变了
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: you "believe" he is a Jewish?
: I suggest you to read Freudmann. it is bizzare to make a
: claim before you are even familiar with the literature. here
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 09:21:15 2004) 提到:
to understand background of Paul is to show why early christianity has in
so many ways drastically differed from traditional judaist religion/philosophy
and jesus's own teachings, and that helpe to explain how come the two
religions have come to be so different in disposition despite the fact that
they are reading some shared scriptures; departure of Paul' from
Judiast/Jewish traditions is the first step for christianity to depart from the
Jewish tradition. many of Paul's (and his fellows and followers')
misinterpretation and mistransaltion of hebrew texts are also considered
to be responsible for many of the later considered anti-semitist content in
new testament and other materials (e.g correspondence), whether they
deliberately did so is purely another matter.both conspiracy theory and
cock-up theory may be applied to explain. Thus these negative
consequences may well due to early christian figures' intellectual defects,
especiall Paul.
apart from deicide, New Testament is fraught with negative portrayals of
Jewish people, depicting them as corruptive and unethical, greedy and
mean, and so on, and so forth.this provides the basis of prevalent
stereotypes against jewish in the subsequent centuries, especially for
those nations which have little or no direct expereince with jewish people.
the earliy writers of new testament might not deliberately try to produce
negative stereotype against jewish - their intentions must be understood
with references to particular social-political circumstances surronding their
writings. but anyway, people of late age do not interpret the text in the
same way: new interpretations and understandiings are given
(though prejudiced and conditoned by historical circumstances), and
they are completely valid and justified based upon their particular
historical circumstances and framework. thus we have texts understood
to conveying very different meanings at different times, and all are valid
and true understood in their own circumstances and value references.
this is apparent problem has been well studied and discussed in modern
hemeneutics
【 在 liuhen (sigh) 的大作中提到: 】
: ft.
: 保罗是不是犹太人和从新约文本是不是反犹太人其实根本不是那么相关。
: 保罗不是犹太人,不等于他歧视/反对犹太人
: 保罗是犹太人,也不等于他不能批评犹太人
: 事实上,保罗作为一个主要由犹太人组成的宗教团体的核心成员,是不可能敌视犹太人的
: 而出于宗教需要,批评犹太人实在太正常了。基督教宣扬世人皆有罪,所以需要救赎
: 如果犹太人都那么完美无罪,还要基督干吗?至于后人拿新约来反对犹太人,实在和保罗
: 本人不一样。批评犹太人这不对那不好,说明犹太人是传教的主要对象,或者是要向犹太
: 人发动圣战了,嘿嘿,从早期基督教的历史看,显然在使徒时代还是前者,后来就变了
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 09:28:10 2004) 提到:
【 在 liuhen (sigh) 的大作中提到: 】
: ft.
: 保罗是不是犹太人和从新约文本是不是反犹太人其实根本不是那么相关。
: 保罗不是犹太人,不等于他歧视/反对犹太人
: 保罗是犹太人,也不等于他不能批评犹太人
: 事实上,保罗作为一个主要由犹太人组成的宗教团体的核心成员,是不可能敌视犹太人的
: 而出于宗教需要,批评犹太人实在太正常了。基督教宣扬世人皆有罪,所以需要救赎
: 如果犹太人都那么完美无罪,还要基督干吗?至于后人拿新约来反对犹太人,实在和保罗
: 本人不一样。批评犹太人这不对那不好,说明犹太人是传教的主要对象,或者是要向犹太
^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^ negative stereotyping and portraying of jewish which may potentially
be an inspiring force for discrimination, hostility and hatred
against Jewish as a people, as a nation, is considered as
anti-semitism. in other words, by today's definiton, many gospels'
writings are indeed very much anti-semitic, this is notably
a case of "true by definition", because anti-semitism is defined
exactly as such, so New Testament cannot immune from anti-semitism.
anti-semitism is defined by content of a text and its implication,
not by the intention of its author or what it is originally meant
for. thus to invalidate the claim one may need to re-define
anti-semitism completely.
the strategy most apologetics would employ, is to show that by
this standard, the Old Testament would be equally anti-semitic:
its text is also full of condemnation against Jewish and never lack
of negative portrayal which may lead to negative stereotypes. this
approaches, thereupon, question the very definition of
anti-semitism in itself.
but few would dismiss the fact that New Testaments does contain
many unfair, negative and scathing portrayal of jewish people.
it is true that whether Paul is Jew or not make no difference.
a Jew can also be anti-semitic: Noam Chomsky is regarded by many
as an anti-semite and George Soros a self-hating Jewish.
whether a verse is anti-semitic is not judged by who says it,
but what it conveys
: 人发动圣战了,嘿嘿,从早期基督教的历史看,显然在使徒时代还是前者,后来就变了
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Thu Oct 14 09:28:26 2004) 提到:
Whether Paul is a Jew has been one of the most controversial
topic in Christian history. Historians do NOT have agreements.
the dispute is NOT settled.
上面这一段是你说的。既然没解决,那你还在那篇帖子里那么肯定地
说保不是犹太人 ?
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: you "believe" he is a Jewish?
: I suggest you to read Freudmann. it is bizzare to make a
: claim before you are even familiar with the literature. here
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Thu Oct 14 09:30:28 2004) 提到:
你别张冠李戴。我转载别人的东西,你又言之凿凿地说保罗不是犹太人。
然后我一核查,在网上一搜索,说这是各说各词,我认为是犹太人,
然后你又风向一变,说那还是争论。
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: is this your big discovery?
: does this not apply to the discourse of analysis
: of anti-semitism in New Testament?
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 09:32:36 2004) 提到:
according to taht book and that school of thought of course,
for them it is a claim, and i am quoting their claim, but they could
be wrong, and i could be wrong as well
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: Whether Paul is a Jew has been one of the most controversial
: topic in Christian history. Historians do NOT have agreements.
: the dispute is NOT settled.
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 09:33:41 2004) 提到:
read the whole thing and get a sense of "context"
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 你别张冠李戴。我转载别人的东西,你又言之凿凿地说保罗不是犹太人。
: 然后我一核查,在网上一搜索,说这是各说各词,我认为是犹太人,
: 然后你又风向一变,说那还是争论。
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 09:47:03 2004) 提到:
【 在 liuhen (sigh) 的大作中提到: 】
: ft.
: 保罗是不是犹太人和从新约文本是不是反犹太人其实根本不是那么相关。
: 保罗不是犹太人,不等于他歧视/反对犹太人
: 保罗是犹太人,也不等于他不能批评犹太人
good point
: 事实上,保罗作为一个主要由犹太人组成的宗教团体的核心成员,是不可能敌视犹太人的
: 而出于宗教需要,批评犹太人实在太正常了。基督教宣扬世人皆有罪,所以需要救赎
: 如果犹太人都那么完美无罪,还要基督干吗?至于后人拿新约来反对犹太人,实在和保罗
: 本人不一样。批评犹太人这不对那不好,说明犹太人是传教的主要对象,或者是要向犹太
: 人发动圣战了,嘿嘿,从早期基督教的历史看,显然在使徒时代还是前者,后来就变了
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Thu Oct 14 10:01:35 2004) 提到:
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: jewish had killed the God's Son, this does not need any radical
: interpretation. it is a fact clearly stated in the New Testament.
你查新约马太福音,我真不明白你到底看过没有 ?罗马的兵丁定死的耶稣,
犹太人支持钉死耶稣。
: the Catholic did not "invent" the fact that the Jews had killed Jesus.
: your example is a terribly bad example
发明与否,自己去查新约去,别在这里教训人。
: you just dont understand the theory, and claim that the theories are
: useless, this is the worst attitude of all in an academic debate.
我没有说过理论没有用。我是说你别拿理论来压人,更确切地说,别拿空泛的
理论术语压人。你要搬理论可以,但是需要把他应用在这个实际中,需要用
一种实际的例子和说法来讲道理。
: in philosophy board we normally ban people making such claims outright.
: if you not know any theory of hermeneutics. it means nothing but
: the fact that you are not qualified for the discussion.
最后这一段,如果谈什么解释学,我当然不懂。但是如果谈圣经,我当然明白。
如果你拿所谓的解释学术语来堆砌成一篇文章,那和当年的马列主义老学究没什么
两样。你和你家亲戚辩论的时候会这么堆砌术语讲大道理吗 ?我就是这个意思。
: as far as i am concerned, this is nonsense, and this is clearly
: far away from mainstream and orthordox interpretation of deicide.
: the majority of people would not believe that Jewish is forgiven
: simply because Jesus has undergone resurrection.
关于耶稣的死这一段。其实耶稣的死是用他的血洗净或者遮盖众人的罪,
耶稣也预计到了这件事情,不信你看马太福音。基督徒的得救就来自耶稣的血。
只要他信了耶稣基督,他的罪就被耶稣的解遮盖。这其实是神学的一个理论,
赞美上帝的歌曲里很多就是以这个为内容,至少新教是这样。所以耶稣的死是很
悲壮而且不是一件坏事,他以自己的死换取其他人的得救。至少从神学理论的
角度看是这样。
: before you ask any "Father", make sure to get some knowledge in terms of what churches or section he belongs to. United States has the most diversified
: christianity in the world, preseved all sorts of werid sects, schools
: and bizzare interpretations and practices.
: this is the thinking that shows complete ignorance towards
: anti-semitism:
: because Jesus is a Jew, so there should be no anti-semitism. this
: logic has completed failed to grasp the central pillar of Christianity.
至少在基督教早期确实如此。罗马书是保罗和犹太教决裂的作品,但是在罗马书
里你可以发现,他的听众是犹太人,这是因为早期的基督教信徒以犹太人为主。
: Yes, Jehovah was Jewish's God and make special contracts with them;
: Yes, Jews were treated as Elects
: Yes, Jesus himself is a Jew,
: but this does not oppose to anti-semitism AT ALL.
这一段我们有共识。我从来不反对基督教曾经反犹的说法。
但是问题在于,新约的年代比天主教年代早得多,新约的作者无法预计
后来的反犹。你让新约承担反犹的罪名,这是不公平的。
基督教的反犹历史悠久,我从来没有为其辩护的念头,这是铁的事实。
问题在于,你不能把这种事情和一些无辜的东西联系起来,这是不公平的。
: what christian anti-semitism believes is that jewish has failed to
: recognise jesus as the messiah; they are AGAINST the GOd's will'; they even
: murdered God's son, this is a blatant denial of God's superioty. and
: Christianity is formally believed to supercede Judaism. Post-Jesus,
: Jewish people have lost ALL their previuos status and privileges,
: and reduced to a condamned nation. From the Christian view,
: Jewish naiton has taken a suicidal course.
: Jesus represents GOD, a pillar in the Holy Spirit, his ethnicity is not
: important and negleted. he stands and speaks for the human race.there
: is a universalist thinking in christianity.
: As i have mentioned, in anti-semitist societies it was not apprpriate to
: say that Jesus was a Jew. In 30s Germany this would be a taboo.
: your position simply cannot explain where anti-semitism was
: ideologically from;
禁忌说明了什么问题 ?说明了这还是解释的问题,不是文本自身的问题。
: and you failed to explain why verses in new testament has on their own
: account provoked and promoted stereotypes and hatred towards Jewish
: where the hell does anti-semitism come from in cultural terms?
: why people resort to new Testament when they need ideological
: and theological justificaitons for their bias and hatred?
: wy they are inspired by these texts? why New Testament has the function
: to provoke anti-semitism, in many many occasions, simply by its own
: account?
proveke,你用到这个词的时候本身就带了一种主观判断。这是不公平的。
你在这里用了无数主观判断的词,function, provoke , promote。
这就不是一种客观的叙述。
事实上,我在举毛泽东言论的例子就是为了说明这一点。你所谓的第一个问题,
实际上是和第二个问题联系在一起的。毛泽东言论的环境和今天的环境完全不同,
所以我们才不相信毛泽东是支持台独。
新约的历史比基督教反犹的历史悠久,他的信徒很多是犹太人,你能让新约为
后来的反犹负责,这是不公平的。你拿天主教以来的反犹推想到耶稣门徒的反犹,
这种推论是错误的。
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
liuhen (sigh) 于 (Thu Oct 14 10:01:48 2004) 提到:
en ,好,至少达成共识,保罗本人事部是犹太人没有关系,有关系的是
保罗写了什么以及如何解释他写的东西。
保罗说,犹太人贪心,卑劣,etc, 是因为
A. 他恨犹太人,犹太人都有罪,他们都该下地狱
B. 犹太人都有罪,但是只要信耶稣基督,就可以得到救赎
A 我们称为反犹主义,B 不是
在保罗的时代,传教的主要对象还是犹太人,耶稣基督和他的徒弟们还在努力地救犹太人,但是跟随他们的人并不多。
直到后来非犹太人开始信教并成为教徒的主要组成,犹太人被认为不可能转信,A 才顺理成章的占了
上风。
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: ^^^^^^^^^^^
: ^^^^^^^ negative stereotyping and portraying of jewish which may potentially
: be an inspiring force for discrimination, hostility and hatred
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Thu Oct 14 10:05:12 2004) 提到:
这一篇如果里面有什么言语得罪请多包含。
注意看完我的说法再回。
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 你查新约马太福音,我真不明白你到底看过没有 ?罗马的兵丁定死的耶稣,
: 犹太人支持钉死耶稣。
: 发明与否,自己去查新约去,别在这里教训人。
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 10:13:56 2004) 提到:
【 在 liuhen (sigh) 的大作中提到: 】
: en ,好,至少达成共识,保罗本人事部是犹太人没有关系,有关系的是
: 保罗写了什么以及如何解释他写的东西。
: 保罗说,犹太人贪心,卑劣,etc, 是因为
: A. 他恨犹太人,犹太人都有罪,他们都该下地狱
: B. 犹太人都有罪,但是只要信耶稣基督,就可以得到救赎
: A 我们称为反犹主义,B 不是
Wrong, B is also anti-semitic by today's definition.
discriminating accounts against Jewish nation or people in
collective terms, and may serve to inspire anti-Jewish hostility
and hatred by readers of the text, is said to be anti-semitic.
what you can probably say is that Paul himself, when applying such
logicin his religious discourse, is not anti-semitic in mind, but
his text is nonetheless an anti-semitic arsensal.
: 在保罗的时代,传教的主要对象还是犹太人,耶稣基督和他的徒弟们还在努力地救犹太人,但是跟随他们的人并不多。
: 直到后来非犹太人开始信教并成为教徒的主要组成,犹太人被认为不可能转信,A 才顺理成章的占了
: 上风。
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 10:15:30 2004) 提到:
and it is very useful for you to read 4028
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 你查新约马太福音,我真不明白你到底看过没有 ?罗马的兵丁定死的耶稣,
: 犹太人支持钉死耶稣。
: 发明与否,自己去查新约去,别在这里教训人。
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Thu Oct 14 10:16:15 2004) 提到:
保罗的罗马书有关于义人的说法,保罗的意思是天下没有义人,不管是
犹太人还是希腊人。众人都有罪。
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: Wrong, B is also anti-semitic by today's definition.
: discriminating accounts against Jewish nation or people in
: collective terms, and may serve to inspire anti-Jewish hostility
: and hatred by readers of the text, is said to be anti-semitic.
: what you can probably say is that Paul himself, when applying such
: logicin his religious discourse, is not anti-semitic in mind, but
: his text is nonetheless an anti-semitic arsensal.
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 10:20:30 2004) 提到:
and i dont think you have read my stuff, too.
remember the fact you dismiss philosophy of religion as "bullshit",
hemeneutics as "nonsense upon tilts" (to quote Bentham)),
and other theires as just bullying nonsenses.
the problem is that you dismiss anything you dont understasnd
as useless, dishonest, lack of substance, bullying and so forth,
as though they are all nonses deliberately put forth to scare off people.
it's tempting to explain such tendency as a reaction formation: denial.
and i am quite curious why i have been lingering here for so long
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 这一篇如果里面有什么言语得罪请多包含。
: 注意看完我的说法再回。
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Thu Oct 14 10:23:43 2004) 提到:
保罗的罗马书不是反犹的,他的罗马书里的称呼来看,听众主要是犹太人的
基督教信徒。
不信你好好看看罗马书。
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: ^^^^^^^^^^^
: ^^^^^^^ negative stereotyping and portraying of jewish which may potentially
: be an inspiring force for discrimination, hostility and hatred
: against Jewish as a people, as a nation, is considered as
: anti-semitism. in other words, by today's definiton, Paul's
: (and many other's) writings are indeed anti-semitic, this is
: a case of "true by definition", because anti-semitism is defined
: exactly as such, so New Testament cannot immune from anti-semitism.
: anti-semitism is defined by content of a text and its implication,
罗马书就没有反犹的内容。他的听众就是犹太人。
: not by the intention of its author or what it is originally meant
: for. thus to invalidate the claim one may need to re-define
: anti-semitism completely.
不是取决于作者的意图 ? 当时的基督教根本就不反犹。我拿毛泽东的言论举
例子就是这个意思。毛泽东说话的环境是一个环境,现在的台独是另外一个环境,
你难道说毛泽东要为台独负责 ?基督教反犹是天主教时代以后的事情,难道
你能把这个反犹的环境硬套给保罗时代的环境去 ?
: the strategy most apologetics would employ, is to show that by
: this standard, the Old Testament would be equally anti-semitic:
: its text is also full of condemnation against Jewish and never lack
: of negative portrayal which may lead to negative stereotypes. this
: approaches, thereupon, question the very definition of
: anti-semitism in itself.
: but few would dismiss the fact that New Testaments does contain
: many unfair, negative and scathing portrayal of jewish people.
: it is true that whether Paul is Jew or not make no difference.
: a Jew can also be anti-semitic: Noam Chomsky is regarded by many
: as an anti-semite and George Soros a self-hating Jewish.
: whether a verse is anti-semitic is not judged by who says it,
: but what it conveys
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 10:27:56 2004) 提到:
everybody is born with sin, but it is happens to be the fact that
the jewish refused to recognise jesus and indirectly killed the son
of God (whilst Greek didnt; whilst Romans would not have killed
Jesus were it's not for the Jew); taht jewish is given particular
concern in New Testament and they are (unfairly) given a lot of scathing
accounts (whilst greeks fortunately have not)
another famous apologetic approach is to question the definition of anti-semitism by saying: if New Testament is anti-Jewish, it can also be said to anti-Greek
and anti-German.
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 保罗的罗马书有关于义人的说法,保罗的意思是天下没有义人,不管是
: 犹太人还是希腊人。众人都有罪。
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Thu Oct 14 10:30:09 2004) 提到:
反哲学的哲学家多着呢。我学一个又有如何 ?
你的说理,问题在于堆砌词汇术语太多,让人感觉是在和我绕圈子。
我说 A, 你拿一堆术语说 B。你和你家亲戚辩论肯定不是这个样子的。
哲学理论也是理论,不在于术语,而在于道理本身。我不知道你是
搞文科还是搞理科的。我搞理工的,比较喜欢彭加勒的著作,罗素的
著作也不错,他们的著作里,大部份不难懂,而且让人容易接受,
这才是大家风范。
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: and i dont think you have read my stuff, too.
: remember the fact you dismiss philosophy of religion as "bullshit",
: hemeneutics as "nonsense upon tilts" (to quote Bentham)),
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 10:36:28 2004) 提到:
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 保罗的罗马书不是反犹的,他的罗马书里的称呼来看,听众主要是犹太人的
: 基督教信徒。
: 不信你好好看看罗马书。
so are you saying that Romans does not contain anti-semitism? this is really
curious. let's presume this is true, but obviously Romans is not equal
to New Testament, and this is a severe logical fallacy, which makes your
whole argument pointless.
: 罗马书就没有反犹的内容。他的听众就是犹太人。
: 不是取决于作者的意图 ? 当时的基督教根本就不反犹。我拿毛泽东的言论举
you just dont get my point, would you please read my text more carefully?
anyway, what IS anti-semitism in the first place?
: 例子就是这个意思。毛泽东说话的环境是一个环境,现在的台独是另外一个环境,
: 你难道说毛泽东要为台独负责 ?基督教反犹是天主教时代以后的事情,难道
go back to 4015
: 你能把这个反犹的环境硬套给保罗时代的环境去 ?
your example of Mao has been proven to be a complete false and misleading
analogy, and i have rejected it completely.
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Thu Oct 14 10:38:37 2004) 提到:
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: everybody is born with sin, but it is happens to be the fact that
: the jewish refused to recognise jesus and indirectly killed the son
: of God (whilst Greek didnt; whilst Romans would not have killed
: Jesus were it's not for the Jew); taht jewish is given particular
: concern in New Testament and they are (unfairly) given a lot of scathing
: accounts (whilst greeks fortunately have not)
新约里犹太人不少是因为早期的基督徒以犹太人为主,耶稣传教也在那里传教。
至于什么 a lot of scathing account, ,我不知道你是怎么得出这个结论的 ?
: another famous apologetic approach is to question the definition of anti-semitism by saying: if New Testament is anti-Jewish, it can also be said to anti-Greek
: and anti-German.
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Thu Oct 14 10:42:40 2004) 提到:
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: so are you saying that Romans does not contain anti-semitism? this is really
: curious. let's presume this is true, but obviously Romans is not equal
: to New Testament, and this is a severe logical fallacy, which makes your
: whole argument pointless.
你给我例子吧。
: you just dont get my point, would you please read my text more carefully?
: anyway, what IS anti-semitism in the first place?
: go back to 4015
: your example of Mao has been proven to be a complete false and misleading
: analogy, and i have rejected it completely.
4015 我看过,我认为我举的例子很合适。看文本要看当时的环境,这不就是你的
意思吗 ?
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 10:42:51 2004) 提到:
well i see your points,
in fact we do have a term to describe people of such dispositional
character (like you in this case), it is "anti-intellectualism",
it does not mean "bad", it just means that people are hostile to
systematic knowledge establishment and sophisticated paradigms of ideas.
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 反哲学的哲学家多着呢。我学一个又有如何 ?
: 你的说理,问题在于堆砌词汇术语太多,让人感觉是在和我绕圈子。
: 我说 A, 你拿一堆术语说 B。你和你家亲戚辩论肯定不是这个样子的。
: 哲学理论也是理论,不在于术语,而在于道理本身。我不知道你是
you can go to Philsoophy board to talk about this: why the hell the jargons?
terminology is useful, the problem is that you are not
familiar with terminology, and tend to see them as pure barriers or nonsenses.
but they are not. terminology is always double-edged sword. once you
get a grip upon them you'd very quickly engage in substantive discussion,
USING them. terminology is nightmare only for laymen.
: 搞文科还是搞理科的。我搞理工的,比较喜欢彭加勒的著作,罗素的
can we get rid off all terminologies in sciences or engineering,
just to make people to understand?
: 著作也不错,他们的著作里,大部份不难懂,而且让人容易接受,
: 这才是大家风范。
i write in a prety darned straightforward way, and this is reocgnised
by man. if you go to philosophy board to read posts by Eunomeia and alike
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 10:45:03 2004) 提到:
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 新约里犹太人不少是因为早期的基督徒以犹太人为主,耶稣传教也在那里传教。
: 至于什么 a lot of scathing account, ,我不知道你是怎么得出这个结论的 ?
scathing account means
* negative portrayl of jewish people's character, functions as potential
stereotypes for late use;
* condenmnations; grave indications of their destiny/fate
*an implicit logical assumption that they are responsible for deicide
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Thu Oct 14 10:45:33 2004) 提到:
术语的主要作用是思想的助记符号,不过不要被这个束缚住了手脚。
理工科里给普通人讲东西,如果提到术语我肯定会解释。
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: well i see your points,
: in fact we do have a term to describe people of such dispositional
: character (like you in this case), it is "anti-intellectualism",
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
liuhen (sigh) 于 (Thu Oct 14 10:52:42 2004) 提到:
hehe
anti-semitic 是你这样定义的么?
只要批评犹太人就是烦忧?
搞笑
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: Wrong, B is also anti-semitic by today's definition.
: discriminating accounts against Jewish nation or people in
: collective terms, and may serve to inspire anti-Jewish hostility
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Thu Oct 14 10:53:07 2004) 提到:
你说的这三个。
第一个新约基本上没有。
第二个,也就是那些广泛引用的马太福音里面的句子。如果你仔细看一遍,
你就会发现,所谓诱导的仇恨,实际是专门解释然后渲染之后得到的东西。
如果非基督徒的读者一看,根本不会认为这是什么谴责或者诅咒。
第三个,隐含的逻辑。这又是得看后人如何解释了。
所以实际上第二条和第三条都是一个解释的问题。
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: scathing account means
: * negative portrayl of jewish people's character, functions as potential
: stereotypes for late use;
: * condenmnations; grave indications of their destiny/fate
: *an implicit logical assumption that they are responsible for deicide
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
liuhen (sigh) 于 (Thu Oct 14 10:54:46 2004) 提到:
老调了
这是后世的观点
你不要强加到早期基督教徒身上好不好
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: everybody is born with sin, but it is happens to be the fact that
: the jewish refused to recognise jesus and indirectly killed the son
: of God (whilst Greek didnt; whilst Romans would not have killed
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 11:28:52 2004) 提到:
anyone who seeks accounts liable to be termd anti-semitism today will find
evidence in New Testametn. just to give some examples. these accounts
are mainly explicit and straightforward.
(versions mixed)
Matthew 21 12 (jewish as lack of faith and have brankfrupted religious life)
And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and
bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the
seats of them that sold doves,
13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of
prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of
prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Matthew 23
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the
kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither
suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows'
houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the
greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and
land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the
child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the
temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple,
he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that
sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever
sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that
sanctifieth the gift?
20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all
things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that
dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by
him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint
and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law,
judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the
other undone.
...
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them
which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children
together, even as a hen gathereth
her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Matthew 24
1 ( (jewish as lack of faith and have brankfrupted religious life, a hint
of moral corruption) As
Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him
for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto
you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be
thrown down.
Matthew 27
25 His blood be on us, and on our children
Mark: 11
18 (deicidal conspiracy by jewish top dogs)
The chief priests and the scribes came to hear of it and were
seeking a way to put him to death, yet they feared him because the whole
crowd was astonished at his teaching.
John 5:16
And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because
he had done these things on the sabbath day.
John: 8 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye
will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth,
because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his
own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
a parable in luke 20
8 And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these
things.
9 Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted
a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a
long time.
10 And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should
give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent
him away empty.
11 And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated
him shamefully, and sent him away empty.
12 And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out.
13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my
beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying,
This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore
shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard
to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The
stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever
it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands
on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken
this parable against them.
...
44
You belong to your father the devil and you willingly carry out your father's
desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in truth,
because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks in
character, because he is a liar and the father of lies.
45
But because I speak the truth, you do not believe me.
46
Can any of you charge me with sin? If I am telling the truth, why do you not
believe me?
47
Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not
listen, because you do not belong to God."
.....
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 你给我例子吧。
: 4015 我看过,我认为我举的例子很合适。看文本要看当时的环境,这不就是你的
: 意思吗 ?
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 11:36:22 2004) 提到:
anti-Semitism
→ n.
hostility to or prejudice against Jews.
- DERIVATIVES anti-Semite n. anti-Semitic adj.
The Concise Oxford English Dictionary. Ed. Catherine Soanes and Angus Stevenson. Oxford University Press, 2004
Anti-Semitism
Hatred of Jews or unreasonable prejudice against them; a term coined in 1875 but with the reality behind it going back virtually to the beginnings of Judaism itself and culminating in the Nazi persecution of the Jews and the Holocaust in which six million Jews perished. Anti-Semitism has assumed various forms. Greek and Latin authors ridiculed the Jewish religion and the Jews who adhered to it either because the Jews were ‘atheists’ in refusing to acknowledge the Greek and Roman deities, or because they thought of themselves as superior.
The cause of anti-Semitism is a question much discussed in modern times. If the phenomenon is due to prejudice, how does the prejudice arise? Opinions have varied from simple dislike of the unfamiliar to the objection to Jews foisting their religious values on the non-Jewish world with a resulting conflict of conscience for the betrayal of these values. It would be too much to say that anti-Semitism has disappeared in civilized society today but, once its horrific consequences in the Holocaust have been perceived, very few decent men and women view it as anything but an aberration.
A Concise Companion to the Jewish Religion. Louis Jacobs. Oxford University Press, 1999
anti-semitism
Literally, persecution of or discrimination against the Jews. The first use of the term, which came into being in the 1870s, is variously attributed to the German Wilhelm Marr and the Frenchman Ernest Renan. In one respect it was a misnomer from the beginning since, in the jargon of the racial theory of the period, ‘Semites’ were a broad group of non-European ethnic groups including Arabs, whereas anti-Semitism was taken to mean, and has continued to mean, an anti-Jewish racism. Anti-Semitism differs from the anti-Jewish ideas and theories which pre-dated the rise of racial theory in the 1850s in that it identifies Jewish characteristics as congenital rather than as specifically religious or broadly cultural (and, therefore, capable of rejection by individual Jews). The persecution of Jews is as old as the ‘Diaspora’ which spread Jewish population throughout Europe and the Mediterranean after the Romans expelled the Jews from Palestine in AD 79; Jews were expelled from several countries in the later Middle Ages. Anti-Semitism differs from most other forms of racism which emphasize merely the inferiority of certain races (especially those of African origin). Doctrines of racial inferiority usually recognize the possibility of racial harmony provided that the inferior race is kept in its proper, inferior, social place. But anti-Semitism emphasizes the innate hostility of Jews to the interests of non-Jews rather than their inferiority as such.
The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Politics. Ed. Iain McLean and Alistair McMillan. Oxford University Press, 2003
anti-Semitism
Hostility towards and discrimination against JEWISH PEOPLE (although there are other Semitic peoples, notably the Arabs, anti-Semitism is only used to refer to prejudice against Jewish people). In the late 19th and early 20th centuries it was strongly evident in France, Germany, Poland, Russia, and elsewhere, many Jewish emigrants fleeing from persecution or POGROMS in south-east Europe to Britain and the USA. After World War I early Nazi propaganda in Germany encouraged anti-Semitism, alleging Jewish responsibility for the nation's defeat. By 1933 Jewish persecution was active throughout the country. The ‘final solution’ which Hitler worked for was to be a HOLOCAUST or extermination of the entire Jewish race; some six million Jews were killed in CONCENTRATION CAMPS before the defeat of Nazism in 1945. Anti-Semitism was a strong feature of society within the former Soviet Union, especially after World War II. Anti-Semitism remains a problem in eastern Europe and in the former Soviet republics, although Jewish people are now allowed to emigrate from these countries. During the early 1990s in western Europe, especially in France and Germany, there was an increase in racist violence by neo-Nazi groups.
Dictionary of World History. Oxford University Press, 2000.
anti-semitism
Hostility against the Jewish people. The term was first used by Wilhelm Marr in Germany) in 1879, but prejudice against the Jews appeared in ancient times. With the triumph of Christianity, Jews were increasingly persecuted, marginalized, and deprived of civil rights. In 1215, the 4th Lateran Council decreed special clothing for Jews, thereby increasing their isolation. They were accused of desecrating the Christian host, of poisoning wells, and of killing Christian children.
Although Jews fared somewhat better in Islamic lands, they did not achieve full civil rights in Christian Europe until the 19th cent. Anti-Semitic feelings did not disappear then, however, as is illustrated by the Dreyfus case in France in 1894, the pronouncements of Richard Wagner in Germany, the circulation of such spurious works as The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and the huge numbers of Jews who emigrated to the United States to escape the pogroms of E. Europe, culminating in the Holocaust. The foundation of the state of Israel was believed by Zionists to be the only solution to anti-Semitism, but as a result of the Arab-Israeli conflict, Muslim anti-Semitism is today even more virulent than its Christian counterpart.
The Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Religions. Ed. John Bowker. Oxford University Press, 2000
【 在 liuhen (sigh) 的大作中提到: 】
: hehe
: anti-semitic 是你这样定义的么?
: 只要批评犹太人就是烦忧?
: 搞笑
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 11:39:10 2004) 提到:
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 你说的这三个。
: 第一个新约基本上没有。
: 第二个,也就是那些广泛引用的马太福音里面的句子。如果你仔细看一遍,
: 你就会发现,所谓诱导的仇恨,实际是专门解释然后渲染之后得到的东西。
: 如果非基督徒的读者一看,根本不会认为这是什么谴责或者诅咒。
: 第三个,隐含的逻辑。这又是得看后人如何解释了。
: 所以实际上第二条和第三条都是一个解释的问题。
relying upon interpretations:
and i think you get some ideas about hermeneutic problems, right?
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 11:42:36 2004) 提到:
【 在 liuhen (sigh) 的大作中提到: 】
: 老调了
: 这是后世的观点
: 你不要强加到早期基督教徒身上好不好
: ...................
go back to read 4028, to understand why this does not matter a single bit.
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 11:46:01 2004) 提到:
by the way, in today's world, if you
say the world is run by jewish (top dogs in major
international financial institutions and business),
you are liable to be called an anti-semite.
this is what we call post-Auschwitz zero tolerance.
【 在 liuhen (sigh) 的大作中提到: 】
: hehe
: anti-semitic 是你这样定义的么?
: 只要批评犹太人就是烦忧?
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Thu Oct 14 11:51:39 2004) 提到:
henemeutic 这个词我不认识,查了查韦氏字典也看不到,
什么意思 ?
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: relying upon interpretations:
: and i think you get some hints about henemeutic problems, right?
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 11:53:15 2004) 提到:
terribly sorry for typo
hermeneutics/hermeneutic
gotta leave
bye bye
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: henemeutic 这个词我不认识,查了查韦氏字典也看不到,
: 什么意思 ?
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Thu Oct 14 11:55:32 2004) 提到:
无非是犹太人不吃耶稣那一套,不信他的话,本来就没什么。
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: anyone who seeks accounts liable to be termd anti-semitism today will find
: evidence in New Testametn. just to give some examples. these accounts
: are mainly explicit and straightforward.
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Thu Oct 14 11:58:18 2004) 提到:
这我明白了。不过我真没得到什么启发,仅仅是直观印象。
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: terribly sorry for typo
: hermeneutics/hermeneutic
: gotta leave
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
liuhen (sigh) 于 (Thu Oct 14 12:00:58 2004) 提到:
我没有看出来只要批评犹太人就是反犹
什么叫hostility
hehe
你有病,可是我可以帮你治
这叫反犹?
医生别活了
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: anti-Semitism
: → n.
: hostility to or prejudice against Jews.
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
liuhen (sigh) 于 (Thu Oct 14 12:02:25 2004) 提到:
我看你还是回去读读你的blog
你是怎么解释克己的?
嘿嘿, 你又是怎么评价朱熹新儒学对论语的注的?
扯远了
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: go back to read 4028, to understand why this does not matter a single bit.
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 12:03:54 2004) 提到:
of course if you want to see it as nothing, it IS nothing.
for many,this is indeed the case, even amongst some
christians today;
if you want to see it as horribly serious, it IS serious, for
disobeying and committing (indirect) deicide is the most
serious sin ever.
for many this has been genuinely true for hundreds of years.
people have different opinions about the nature and implication
of a text or doctrine, and people disagree with each other, and this
gives us the problem of riddle of hermeneutics, because
a text is always open to interpetation, and always leads
to different practices. no one can claim an ultimate truth:
what is a text meant BY and what is a text meant FOR?
once you have realised taht such prejudice and subjectivism
is unavoidable you will look beyond.
this is what modern and postmoderni theorists trying to do:
to recognise subjectivism and discard objectivism. to
abandon the project to employ "scientific" means to discover
the authentic meaning of the original authors: this is mission
impossible. so long as the problem cannot be solved, people
just discard the problem itself.
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 无非是犹太人不吃耶稣那一套,不信他的话,本来就没什么。
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Thu Oct 14 12:04:57 2004) 提到:
这不就是取决于解释么。
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: of course if you want to see it as nothing, it IS nothing.
: for many,this is indeed the case, even amongst some
: christians today;
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
Dinothere (修炼中) 于 (Thu Oct 14 12:05:34 2004) 提到:
今天收兵,再灌老婆要发怒了。
【 在 Dinothere (修炼中) 的大作中提到: 】
: 这不就是取决于解释么。
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 12:06:37 2004) 提到:
【 在 liuhen (sigh) 的大作中提到: 】
: 我没有看出来只要批评犹太人就是反犹
you criticse people becuase they are jewish.
in christian theology, the idea of "collective sin" carried by jewish
(and their sons!)
in new testament, e.g. he discourse of "sinful nation".
: 什么叫hostility
the dictionary does not try to define it, for obvious reasons.
: hehe
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
liuhen (sigh) 于 (Thu Oct 14 12:09:39 2004) 提到:
第一句话不适用于保罗
第二句话也不适用于保罗
你要说medival christian theology 还可以
要是说mordern christian theology 又要被人骂死
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: you criticse people becuase they are jewish.
: in christian theology, the idea of "collective sin" carried by jewish
: (and their sons!)
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 12:10:08 2004) 提到:
【 在 liuhen (sigh) 的大作中提到: 】
: 我看你还是回去读读你的blog
a philosophy of self-control self-restraint, with implicit purpose to
meet up paternalistic and authortarian values; a constraint upon individualism.
: 你是怎么解释克己的?
: 嘿嘿, 你又是怎么评价朱熹新儒学对论语的注的?
: 扯远了
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
liuhen (sigh) 于 (Thu Oct 14 12:12:44 2004) 提到:
扣帽子还真在行
不知道没读过四书集注救敢出来评论朱熹的你会给什么terminology
hehe
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: a philosophy of self-control self-restraint, with implicit purpose to
: meet up paternalistic and authortarian values; a constraint upon individualism.
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 12:14:03 2004) 提到:
yes i do
【 在 liuhen (sigh) 的大作中提到: 】
: 扣帽子还真在行
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
liuhen (sigh) 于 (Thu Oct 14 12:15:09 2004) 提到:
不知道没读过四书集注就出来评论朱熹的你能给什么terminology
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: yes i do
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 12:15:10 2004) 提到:
and paul is not new testament, and paul is not christianity, and
paul is not jesus christ, whose discourse of collective condemnation
is even more explicit - according to the gospels
【 在 liuhen (sigh) 的大作中提到: 】
: 第一句话不适用于保罗
: 第二句话也不适用于保罗
: 你要说medival christian theology 还可以
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
liuhen (sigh) 于 (Thu Oct 14 12:21:50 2004) 提到:
让KGB 自己说
我懒得说了
negative stereotyping and portraying of jewish which may potentially
be an inspiring force for discrimination, hostility and hatred
against Jewish as a people, as a nation, is considered as
anti-semitism. in other words, by today's definiton, many gospels'
writings are indeed very much anti-semitic, this is notably
a case of "true by definition", because anti-semitism is defined
exactly as such, so New Testament cannot immune from anti-semitism.
anti-semitism is defined by content of a text and its implication,
not by the intention of its author or what it is originally meant
for. thus to invalidate the claim one may need to re-define
anti-semitism completely.
CONTEXT:
颜渊问仁。子曰:“克己复礼为仁......
朱熹:
克,胜也。己,谓身之私欲也。
呵呵,这个实在太搞笑了吧。你说了半天,居然在这里引用朱子集注。在这个个问题上,朱
子的注解对了解先秦思想毫无帮助。
你做的是很莫名其妙的一件事情:朱子本身就是新儒,正是我们所说的受到佛家禁欲主义影
响,重新整理、诠释并且发展儒家的集大成式人物。朱子之集注中,早已包含了佛家影响;
朱子个人发展的一些概念,如借月印万山喻理一分殊,如受华严宗启发之二元论,都是受的
佛家影响。尽管朱子本人是排佛分子。但他是借佛批我,这种影响是众所周知的。
你拿朱子的诠释来理解孔子,毫无意义。如果你要证明能和佛教等外邦宗教禁欲主义相媲美
的思想早已存在,需要回到先秦。你要找集注,麻烦找出佛家引进中国之前的集注。朱子的
集注和学说叫朱子儒学,不叫先秦儒学。在这类列任何朱子的东西,都是新儒,对证明新儒
的禁欲主义是否来自佛教,毫无帮助。
到底是谁在白费口舌呀?呵呵.
随便找本中国哲学史,关于禁欲主义一定有所介绍,而且是在宋儒部分,呵呵。
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: a philosophy of self-control self-restraint, with implicit purpose to
: meet up paternalistic and authortarian values; a constraint upon individualism.
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 12:23:45 2004) 提到:
laugh
Chu Hsi?
(explicit) summary and development of early neo-confucian theorists' thoughts
and implicit (conscious or unconscious) appropriation of Buddhist metaphysical
philosophies/paradigims and theoretical focus upon asceticism, and employ them
to re-interpret early Confucianist classical texts, in order to formulate a new
form of more complete, more sophisticaed philosphy that can meet up the demand
by the Zeitgeist then.
Chu Hsi is a conservative reformist. and a compassionate revisionist.
【 在 liuhen (sigh) 的大作中提到: 】
: 不知道没读过四书集注就出来评论朱熹的你能给什么terminology
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
liuhen (sigh) 于 (Thu Oct 14 12:25:50 2004) 提到:
也就是说,要证明新约反犹,必须举出和新约同期的典籍
说明新约迫害/歧视犹太人
3世纪以后基督教的行为,和解释对我们理解新约是不是反犹根本一点帮助都没有
这是kgb 同学的观点
不是我的
【 在 liuhen (sigh) 的大作中提到: 】
: 让KGB 自己说
: 我懒得说了
: negative stereotyping and portraying of jewish which may potentially
: ...................
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
liuhen (sigh) 于 (Thu Oct 14 12:27:46 2004) 提到:
不要装作不懂中文好不好...
我问的是什么?
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: 标 题: Re: The Origins of Christian Anti-Semitism
: 发信站: BBS 水木清华站 (Thu Oct 14 12:23:45 2004), 站内
:
:
: laugh
:
: Chu Hsi?
:
: (explicit) summary and development of early neo-confucian theorists' thoughts
: and implicit (conscious or unconscious) appropriation of Buddhist metaphysical
: philosophies/paradigims and theoretical focus upon asceticism, and employ them
: to re-interpret early Confucianist classical texts, in order to formulate a new
: form of more complete, more sophisticaed philosphy that can meet up the demand
: by the Zeitgeist then.
:
: Chu Hsi is a conservative reformist. and a compassionate revisionist.
:
:
:
: 【 在 liuhen (sigh) 的大作中提到: 】
: : 不知道没读过四书集注就出来评论朱熹的你能给什么terminology
:
:
: --
:
: ※ 来源:·BBS 水木清华站 smth.org·[FROM: 82.39.44.*]
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 12:29:39 2004) 提到:
【 在 liuhen (sigh) 的大作中提到: 】
: 让KGB 自己说
: 我懒得说了
: negative stereotyping and portraying of jewish which may potentially
: be an inspiring force for discrimination, hostility and hatred
: against Jewish as a people, as a nation, is considered as
: anti-semitism. in other words, by today's definiton, many gospels'
: writings are indeed very much anti-semitic, this is notably
: a case of "true by definition", because anti-semitism is defined
: exactly as such, so New Testament cannot immune from anti-semitism.
: anti-semitism is defined by content of a text and its implication,
: not by the intention of its author or what it is originally meant
: for. thus to invalidate the claim one may need to re-define
: anti-semitism completely.
perfect!
: CONTEXT:
: 颜渊问仁。子曰:“克己复礼为仁......
: 朱熹:
: 克,胜也。己,谓身之私欲也。
: 呵呵,这个实在太搞笑了吧。你说了半天,居然在这里引用朱子集注。在这个个问题上,朱
: 子的注解对了解先秦思想毫无帮助。
: 你做的是很莫名其妙的一件事情:朱子本身就是新儒,正是我们所说的受到佛家禁欲主义影
: 响,重新整理、诠释并且发展儒家的集大成式人物。朱子之集注中,早已包含了佛家影响;
: 朱子个人发展的一些概念,如借月印万山喻理一分殊,如受华严宗启发之二元论,都是受的
: 佛家影响。尽管朱子本人是排佛分子。但他是借佛批我,这种影响是众所周知的。
: 你拿朱子的诠释来理解孔子,毫无意义。如果你要证明能和佛教等外邦宗教禁欲主义相媲美
: 的思想早已存在,需要回到先秦。你要找集注,麻烦找出佛家引进中国之前的集注。朱子的
: 集注和学说叫朱子儒学,不叫先秦儒学。在这类列任何朱子的东西,都是新儒,对证明新儒
: 的禁欲主义是否来自佛教,毫无帮助。
: 到底是谁在白费口舌呀?呵呵.
: 随便找本中国哲学史,关于禁欲主义一定有所介绍,而且是在宋儒部分,呵呵。
perfect account
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KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 12:31:10 2004) 提到:
【 在 liuhen (sigh) 的大作中提到: 】
: 也就是说,要证明新约反犹,必须举出和新约同期的典籍
: 说明新约迫害/歧视犹太人
: 3世纪以后基督教的行为,和解释对我们理解新约是不是反犹根本一点帮助都没有
: 这是kgb 同学的观点
: 不是我的
you just dont get a single point. pure waste of time.
hehe.
i gotta go, bye bye
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KGB (有人叫我主席。) 于 (Thu Oct 14 12:31:57 2004) 提到:
of course i am labelling chu hsi and sneering at you.
【 在 liuhen (sigh) 的大作中提到: 】
: 不要装作不懂中文好不好...
: 我问的是什么?
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liuhen (sigh) 于 (Thu Oct 14 12:34:33 2004) 提到:
你有你的自由
呵呵
And I thought stupidity could be curable.
【 在 KGB (有人叫我主席。) 的大作中提到: 】
: of course i am labelling chu hsi and sneering at you.
FROM 82.39.44.*